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Re: Funds, server hosting and more
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From: Timothe Litt <litt_at_acm.org>
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 20:40:18 -0400
On 18-May-22 07:08, Daniel Stenberg via curl-library wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022, Ray Satiro via curl-library wrote:
>
>> I suggest figure out and then document what the actual expenses are
>> and charge for that rather than an arbitrary amount. I'd guess donors
>> won't like arbitrary amounts as they're somewhat opaque.
>
> I did not do that because I do not want a discussion about hosting costs.
>
> The server used for most curl services is shared with other services
> so the price we [1] pay to our hosting company is not for just curl
> services. How large part of a hosting fee is for curl services? It's
> not an exact science.
>
> Talking "exact hosting costs" will bring the inevitable discussion on
> how to host the server cheaper (and I've already received numerous
> such offers), while that's not the only factor involved here. Far from
> it.
>
> You seem to then say none of my time and efforts should be included in
> the charge? Why is that?
>
> You guess this is what sponsors want. I talk to sponsors at least
> every once in a while and never have I heard such a request from a
> single one. Why would sponsors insist on this?
>
> The amount paid for these services is very exact and clear, and the
> expense is also publicly visible in curl's Open Collective records
> [2]. I imagine *that* is exactly what sponsors (and project memmbers)
> want? Our promise to sponsors is to spend the money on activities that
> benefit the curl project. I strongly believe this conforms to that
> promise.
>
> [1] = the server is run and maintained by Haxx AB, the Sweden based
> company I co-own with 3 friends. I am the "CEO" of Haxx.
>
> [2] = https://opencollective.com/curl
>
I don't contribute financially to cURL. But I do contribute knowledge.
I don't charge for it. But I don't put anywhere close to the time and
energy into cURL that Daniel does.
Daniel is the heart of cURL - from the beginning to the current state -
in which consulting/commercial support arrangements seem to pay him
enough to make possible his stalwart dedication to the project. No one
questions his dedication or contributions.
I don't object to charging cURL for out-of-pocket hosting costs, nor for
some of his time. The sponsors clearly benefit.
And I accept that when using part of a contacted service, it is
difficult to allocate costs precisely. Precision is often not worth the
trouble. Certainly when this has historically been a donation of
service acquired for other purposes, convenience and the other uses are
big factors in choosing where to obtain them.
However, the choice of how much to charge does seem arbitrary, and is
definitely not transparent. Theopencollective.com entry for this
transaction <https://opencollective.com/curl/expenses/76911> says only
"curl.se hosting and maintancence [sic] 2021 Invoice #76911 $12,000.00
USD Paid". The expense creator and submitter are *both *Daniel. The
balance in the account is ~$121K, so this invoice was about 9% of the
available funds.
From the outside, the CEO of the service company charging sponsors for
the company's services and his time, ultimately payable to him, can
appear to be self-dealing. I've never allowed anyone (or been allowed
myself) to approve their own expenses. There's always another person to
sign off. Even CEOs.
There is a middle ground.
It seems to me that a better, more transparent approach would be to have
another person review and sign-off on the estimate. And have that
person approve the invoice on opencollective. Perhaps the Haxx AB's
treasurer or accountant, who would be familiar with the situation and
could do this efficiently? I don't think this requires microscopic
analysis, just some high level sanity tests. e.g. if the hosting is
primarily for the non-cURL business but the charge to cURL was 90% of
the the total hosting bill, something would be wrong. Or if 100% of his
time [168 hr/wk!] was billable, but 50% was also charged to cURL. I
would not expect any of those to be true here. And I would expect more
realistic tests to pass.
In no way am I suggesting that Daniel is dishonest. But standard fiscal
controls and policies provide assurance that expenses are reasonable and
that the system is honest. Transparency & trust require some modest
controls.
Timothe Litt
ACM Distinguished Engineer
--------------------------
This communication may not represent the ACM or my employer's views,
if any, on the matters discussed.
Received on 2022-05-19
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 20:40:18 -0400
On 18-May-22 07:08, Daniel Stenberg via curl-library wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022, Ray Satiro via curl-library wrote:
>
>> I suggest figure out and then document what the actual expenses are
>> and charge for that rather than an arbitrary amount. I'd guess donors
>> won't like arbitrary amounts as they're somewhat opaque.
>
> I did not do that because I do not want a discussion about hosting costs.
>
> The server used for most curl services is shared with other services
> so the price we [1] pay to our hosting company is not for just curl
> services. How large part of a hosting fee is for curl services? It's
> not an exact science.
>
> Talking "exact hosting costs" will bring the inevitable discussion on
> how to host the server cheaper (and I've already received numerous
> such offers), while that's not the only factor involved here. Far from
> it.
>
> You seem to then say none of my time and efforts should be included in
> the charge? Why is that?
>
> You guess this is what sponsors want. I talk to sponsors at least
> every once in a while and never have I heard such a request from a
> single one. Why would sponsors insist on this?
>
> The amount paid for these services is very exact and clear, and the
> expense is also publicly visible in curl's Open Collective records
> [2]. I imagine *that* is exactly what sponsors (and project memmbers)
> want? Our promise to sponsors is to spend the money on activities that
> benefit the curl project. I strongly believe this conforms to that
> promise.
>
> [1] = the server is run and maintained by Haxx AB, the Sweden based
> company I co-own with 3 friends. I am the "CEO" of Haxx.
>
> [2] = https://opencollective.com/curl
>
I don't contribute financially to cURL. But I do contribute knowledge.
I don't charge for it. But I don't put anywhere close to the time and
energy into cURL that Daniel does.
Daniel is the heart of cURL - from the beginning to the current state -
in which consulting/commercial support arrangements seem to pay him
enough to make possible his stalwart dedication to the project. No one
questions his dedication or contributions.
I don't object to charging cURL for out-of-pocket hosting costs, nor for
some of his time. The sponsors clearly benefit.
And I accept that when using part of a contacted service, it is
difficult to allocate costs precisely. Precision is often not worth the
trouble. Certainly when this has historically been a donation of
service acquired for other purposes, convenience and the other uses are
big factors in choosing where to obtain them.
However, the choice of how much to charge does seem arbitrary, and is
definitely not transparent. Theopencollective.com entry for this
transaction <https://opencollective.com/curl/expenses/76911> says only
"curl.se hosting and maintancence [sic] 2021 Invoice #76911 $12,000.00
USD Paid". The expense creator and submitter are *both *Daniel. The
balance in the account is ~$121K, so this invoice was about 9% of the
available funds.
From the outside, the CEO of the service company charging sponsors for
the company's services and his time, ultimately payable to him, can
appear to be self-dealing. I've never allowed anyone (or been allowed
myself) to approve their own expenses. There's always another person to
sign off. Even CEOs.
There is a middle ground.
It seems to me that a better, more transparent approach would be to have
another person review and sign-off on the estimate. And have that
person approve the invoice on opencollective. Perhaps the Haxx AB's
treasurer or accountant, who would be familiar with the situation and
could do this efficiently? I don't think this requires microscopic
analysis, just some high level sanity tests. e.g. if the hosting is
primarily for the non-cURL business but the charge to cURL was 90% of
the the total hosting bill, something would be wrong. Or if 100% of his
time [168 hr/wk!] was billable, but 50% was also charged to cURL. I
would not expect any of those to be true here. And I would expect more
realistic tests to pass.
In no way am I suggesting that Daniel is dishonest. But standard fiscal
controls and policies provide assurance that expenses are reasonable and
that the system is honest. Transparency & trust require some modest
controls.
Timothe Litt
ACM Distinguished Engineer
--------------------------
This communication may not represent the ACM or my employer's views,
if any, on the matters discussed.
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